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Finn
23rd June 2007, 04:19 PM
Hi Roger,

Maybe you or someone else can give me a very wanted tip.

I have been windsurfing for almost a year now. My equipment is a F-type 158, a 8,5 sail and the 64 cm stock fin that I use at quite flat water mostly (weight 78 kg). My problem is to get the whole package to sail upwind when planing. I manage to get the board into planing, get myself into at least the front strap and hook in. But when I after that try to steer upwind by using my feet the board loose the plane or tends to bear away .

My own rudimentary diagnosis is that I don't get enough of my own weight into the rig. Maybe due to too long harness lines (and/or having the lines too much forward) which makes it difficult to sheet in properly.

Do you think this is one the right track or is there something else to think of here.

Thanks and happy midsummer!

Finn

Roger
23rd June 2007, 10:25 PM
Hi Finn,
There are a number of factors that may be preventing you from untapping the full lite wind upwind potential of your F-type 158.
What brand and model 8.5 m2 rig do you have...?
What is the windspeed ....? Is it marginal for planing, or can you easily get your board up to full speed on a beam reach?
Where do you have the mast foot positioned... near the back...near the middle... or near the front... of the mast slot?
Are your harness lines truly balanced with your sail raked all the way back and the foot down on the deck....?
Answer these questions and we can figure out the issues that are keeping you from getting the full upwind potential from your board.
Also could you please describe what you think you are doing with your feet to make the board turn upwind.
Are you:
Getting the board on a full plane before your try to go upwind?
Lifting with your front foot slightly and pushing across the top of the fin parallel with the surface of the water (i.e. not pushing down toward the water)?
Also, how long are your harness lines?
How high is your boom? (i.e. shoulder high...chin hgh..nose high...up above your eyes?
How do you have your sail tuned? Maximum draft (i.e. minimum downhaul and outhaul for max. power); medium power i.e. normal dowhaul and outhaul for the best combination of range and top speed)
tuned for overpowered (i.e. max. downhaul and outhaul to flatten the foil and give the most twist at the top for good overpowered stability)
Are you simply heading too high for the conditions?
Your comment
"But when I after that try to steer upwind by using my feet the board loose the plane or tends to bear away ." suggests there may be more than one problem here.
If your board falls off plane (from a fully wound up beam reach plane) then you may be going up too high for the conditions, or turning upwind too quickly.
If your board "bears off the wind" tht would mean you are tipping the board too much to leeward and actually almost "initiating a jibe".
Where are your footstraps positioned... in the farthest back and outboard positions, or somewhere else?

Lots of factors here, and I'm sure we can solvew your issues with answers to these questions.
Hope this helps,

Finn
24th June 2007, 01:41 AM
Thanks for a quick reply. I was out in between this and my first post and experienced the same problem again. Now in stronger winds than usual (15-18 knots). It is less problem going on a beam reach but very hard for me to higher than that.

Here are the answers (to the best of my abilities)

• I’ve got a Maui Sail Pursuit no-cam freeride sail.
• I seem to experience the same problem in winds from marginal for getting planing on a beam reach (10-12 knots) to conditions in which I get overpowered (20+ knots).
• Mastfoot near the middle.
• Not at all sure that the harness lines are balanced when the sail is raked back and the foot down the deck, probably not. Anyway to test that without actually being out sailing?
• Regarding the behaviour of my feet, I do get the problem with board on a fully plane and even more so when not fully planing.
• Don’t think I manage to lift my front foot and I’m afraid I too often pushing down toward the water rather than pushing across the top of the fin parallel with the surface of the water, which I guess that’s the thing to do.
• My harness lines are adjustable and out to maximum 26 inches (min. 20 inch).
• The boom is chin high. The sail is downhauled to maximum, at least when the wind is above 14-15 knots.
• Yes, I probably go too high for the conditions some times. But, it seems to me that the board bears off wind even when it is plane sideways so to speak.
• The straps are in the farthest forward and inboard positions. Bad idea?

Hope this fills in the missing information and thanks again!

Finn

Roger
24th June 2007, 09:31 AM
Hi Finn,
OK, here are some suggestions:
I took a look at the Maui Sails Website and I'm not so sure that the 8.5 m2 Pursuit is really a good match for your F-Type 158.
That's all I'm going to say on this subject.
You need to figure out how to get back into the outboard and rear most footstraps. Using the inboard and forward footstrap positions is taking away alot of the leverage you need to set the fin attitude to take you upwind.
Your harness lines sound as if they are too long for you to get your weight off the board and onto the rig.
Especially with your footstraps forward and inboard, you can't get your weight off the board and I would suspect that you are indeed pushing "down" and doing it with your heels (or at least the heel of your back foot. On a board as wide as the F-Type 158, there's no way you can get the lee rail lowered a bit and pressure on the fin to go upwind on fin lift, so you are probably using upwind rail down and the shape (rockerline) in the board to take you upwind slightly.
This of courese slows you down dramatically and prevents your board from really getting upwind in the way it was designed.
If the board seems to be going sideways, I'm absolutely sure you are trying to use the upwind rail.
You need to really get the board going, get the rig fully sheeted in and the foot of the sail down on the deck (you are correct, you cannot check your harness line balance with the sail raked back and down until you are on the water and you can remove one hand from the boom, and if the rig seems balance, then take both hands off the boom momentarily. If your rig is truly balanced, you should be able to take both hands off and the rig will simply stay in the same position and provide you with the same power, either hands on or hands off.
I'd try your mast foot a little further back, but wait until you have acheived getting the footstraps moved back and out board.
My guess would be that you have only "scratched the surface" of the speed and upwind speed and angle the F-Type 158 is capable of.
Hope this helps,

Finn
24th June 2007, 02:02 PM
Thanks! Very valuable and I think you're very right. I've only started to find out the potentialities of the F-type. I'll get back to you when I've tried out your tips more thoroughly.

All the best!

Finn

windsurferdagg
25th June 2007, 12:07 AM
I had the same problem and I think I asked roger the same thing :)

I just found that ourboard straps and really put your back foot on the edge of the board. Just lean forward so your harness almost digs into your side, rake the sail back a bit, push hard with back foot across the board while lifting up with your front foot. I can now go very well upwind.

tks roger, it works ;)

Thomas

Duracell
25th June 2007, 04:26 AM
another tip would be to hook in after you've got both feet in the straps just to make sure your lines aren't the problem.

Finn
3rd July 2007, 06:12 PM
Hi again,

I've now tried the straps in the back and outborad psoitions and it works! It was, as Roger suspected, me pushing down (especially my front foot) on the board rather than putting the pressure on the side of the board. It was rather quickly I managed to go higher but it wasn't until the wind picked up and I was able to get (also) the back foot in the strap that I got the fin lift for the first time. Really thriliing and great experience!!

Many thanks!

Fin

Roger
3rd July 2007, 09:13 PM
Hi Finn,
Glad to hear that the suggestions worked for you.
I agree, it's a reall rush when you get enough speed, and get everything balanced and positioened so your rig holds you up, the fin
bites with a little lee rail on, and the board takes off upwind, seeming to gain speed rather than lose speed.
Good stuff!
R

windsurferdagg
3rd July 2007, 09:37 PM
I had the same eye opening experience two days ago... I would wait until my Go was fully planing before going for the straps, but now, I realized that getting a wider board with a big fin planing is all about pressure "across" the board and not just standing on it. Now if I know there is enough wind, bare off, feet in straps quickly and im planing faster and going WAY faster.

I love what roger says above... Especialy when overpowered! I was out well powered to overpowered on a 7.6 and was amazed how fun it was. I was blasting around, my friend only 2-3 feet away, keeping pace to each other and than we both would hit the same chop and jump (or in my case try to clear the massive 48 cm fin). THat is one of the most fun things to do. That and being so comfertable that you just let the front or back hand drag in the water. Its a bit showing off, but feels amazing.

HappyHappyJoyJoy
22nd July 2007, 05:06 PM
Hi all guys,

Could you please describe what the front foot should be doing exactly during planing upwind? How is "lifting up" done? Is the front foot rotated forward in the foot strap? Where is the front knee looking? Where are hips and shoulders looking? OK, and is the BACK foot rotated in the footstrap? And is the back knee rotated forward?

Background: Before the recent windsurfing vacations, I tried, with some success, to raise the windward rail with both feet to go upwind, but only in flat water. In chop and in high wind the board had a tendency of getting blown away from under my feet if a gust got between the board and the water during an involuntary chop-hop. The instructor I hired at the vacation told me to rotate everything in my body (feet, knees, hips and shoulders) forward. During this my front arm would be stretched and the back arm would be bent sheeting in. It helped me in the chop a great deal. But I feel that in this stance I cannot use the fin to go upwind.

Could you help me out with the correct stance please?

HappyHappyJoyJoy
23rd July 2007, 11:23 PM
I'll open a new topic for this. I really Roger's advice on this.

Roger
24th July 2007, 10:03 AM
Hi Happy,
We can discuss this here just fine.
Sorry for the delayed reply, but I had to have some "in hospital" diagnostic tests run today, and I'm just now getting back to my normal routine.
If you want to plane upwind "on the fin" you need to lift with your front foot in the footstrap to do 2 things..... first you want to keep all weight off the windward rail of the board so the board will roll to a slightly lee rail down position...... and secondly you want be able to "set your hips"
by turning them about 45 deg. from the boards centerline.
"Setting the hips" won't feel good at first and will seem very counter-intuitive, but if you really want the best possible upwind speed, and overall VMG in an upwind direction it's something you need to learn.
If you put weight on the front foot in a down toward the water direction, your board won't stay at the requisite slightly lee rail down roll attitude that gives the fin the best upwind "bite".
The front foot is not "rotated" in the front strap, but you kind of arch your foot (either toes down so your arch yoiur foot up into the strap, or toes up so your toes kinda "jam" beyond the footstrap. This is the only way you can exert upward pressure on the footstrap without having your foot slide out of the strap.
The back foot can be rotated slightly (it's good to try putting your heel in different positions as you push on the rail with your back foot to find the optimum place to "PUSH" across the top of the board/fin with your back foot.
I agree that the more "rotated" stance suggested by your vacation instructor won't allow you to sail "upwind on the fin" but in the conditions you are describing (higher winds, smaller board/rig /fin; and larger chop, you may not be able to easily use the "on the fin"
technique effectively. AND, in higher winds, with the board getting air over the chop, you can't keep the fin engaged enough to make the fin stay loaded.
But, for this higher wind, bumpier water, smaller board/rig/fin sailing, you probably don't need to go upwind so high (unless you are racing in formula races on formula equipment).
Windsurfing is very dynamic, and there are no "universal techniques" that work in all situations, so to sail in a variety of conditions, on a range of different boards/rigs/fins, you need to adapt your sailing to the conditions, board/rig/fin.
Hope this helps,

Jay
24th July 2007, 01:12 PM
Roger, just a quick clarification on "setting your hips" at 45 degrees to the board centerline - this is something I am not yet doing and really want to understand: Are you saying to set your rear hip further outboard than your forward hip (effectively sheeting the sail close to the centerline)? I would think if you mean the opposite (rear hip inboard compared to rear hip) it would be harder to sheet in - that sounds like more of a downwind hip position. Or do I have it all wrong?
Thanks!
Jay

HappyHappyJoyJoy
24th July 2007, 05:10 PM
2 Roger - thanks a lot, if I am lucky I'll try that out tomorrow.
2 Jay - yep, you have it all wrong :). You should be looking forward at all times, not back! If you feel you can't sheet in enough, move the harness lines backward so you don't have to pull that much with your back hand.

Roger
24th July 2007, 07:45 PM
Hi Jay,
No, you need to look at this from a "dynamics" perspective.
Since I cannot go out and sail right now (just had a heart catheterization yesterday) it may take us a few days to get this really sorted out, but the "setting the hips" is something you need to do right at first (and, as I said previously it will be uncomfortable the first few times you do it) to get yourself into the "mode" of pulling upwind and off the water with your front foot, while pushing across the top of the fin paralel with the water surface with your back foot.
So, if you are "pulling" with your front foot, and pushing with your back foot, there's no way the front hip can be inboard of the rear hip.
The main idea here is that your feet (which are fixed in the straps) face more toward the direction the board is going, and then you pull with your front foot and push with your back foot it "feels like" you are trying to "twist" the board at some central point between your front and rear feet.
As far as sheeting in, as Happy suggests, you need to have your harness lines doing that and your upper body needs to pretty much face the rig.
So, the "twist the hips" sort of "twists the board" into a lee rail down roll attitude to and pushing across the top of the fin provides the resistance needed to keep the fin at the correct attitude and loading to give the best upwind lift.
Your stance here is basically "twisted" as well with the feet facing more forward, the hips set at somewhere around 45 deg. and the upper body shoulders facing the rig which is sheeted in and raked back fully.
This is all quite hard to describe, but I can assure you that once you get it everything lined up and your fin "bites" upwind, you will want some more as your board will maintain lot's of speed, and be turned significantly higher than you can get with any other method/stance.
I'll work with you guys on this, just tell me what your board/rig/fin are doing and perhaps we can get you dialed in farily quiickly.
You need good solid planing wind, and you need to have really good speed, then go into upwind mode.
You can't just get planing a little bit, and then jump on the fin (maybe on a formula board, with a 60-70 cm fin) as you need to get the water flowing on the fin to develop the required lift.
If the conditions are marginal and you can't get plenty of apparent wind, you will need to get bigger gear or use the upwind rail down slogging upwind techniques as an alternative.
Hope this helps,
maybe we can

HappyHappyJoyJoy
24th July 2007, 10:14 PM
Roger wrote:
...
Your stance here is basically "twisted" as well with the feet facing more forward, the hips set at somewhere around 45 deg. and the upper body shoulders facing the rig which is sheeted in and raked back fully.
...


Roger, if shoulders and hips are not parallel, than the hips should look more forward, correct?

I have a Mistral Explosion board 145L and NS Drive sail 7m2 and Tushingham Lightning 9.4m2 (I got afraid to buy the unusual F-type board :) though I did give it a lot of thought. You see I'd like not to stop after making the carved gybe ang go for vulcans etc.). The NS Drive sail 7m2 is usually too small - I manage to plane only in 12+ knots. I am going to use it tomorrow. The fin is 53cm long and has a straight shape. I bought it for the bigger sail. I also have the 50cm stock fin, which is a little bit curved. I weigh 85kg which is a little below 170 pounds.

Sorry about the heart condition.

HappyHappyJoyJoy
24th July 2007, 10:30 PM
Jay wrote:
Roger, just a quick clarification on "setting your hips" at 45 degrees to the board centerline - this is something I am not yet doing and really want to understand: Are you saying to set your rear hip further outboard than your forward hip (effectively sheeting the sail close to the centerline)? I would think if you mean the opposite (rear hip inboard compared to rear hip) it would be harder to sheet in - that sounds like more of a downwind hip position. Or do I have it all wrong?
Thanks!
Jay

Jay, sorry, I understand that the question has been asked to Roger. But I could not help myself :)

Jay
26th July 2007, 12:05 PM
Roger,

First, I hope you are recovering well from your heart catheterization and that all is well with your coronaries. You are far too valuable a national windsurfing resource to get sidetracked with health issues!

I'm on a FT158 with either a Retro 10.5 or 8.5 depending on conditions, with the stock fin.

Thanks for your clarification on setting your hips. I think I'm finally with you. Wow, I just didn't have a clue about using the waist/hips properly, THANKS! Just a few fine points and I'll be set to work on this:

If I understand you correctly, you're sheeting in with your shoulders and torso, keeping the shoulders parallel with the rig (ultimately when fully sheeted in the shoulders are parallel with the board's centerline); but at the same time you set your hips by by twisting at the waist facing your hips forward while pushing across the fin with your rear foot and pulling/lifting with your front foot (in effect scissoring the board upwind (without chaning the anle of attack of the sail) and tilting the fin slightly to windward to maximize it's lift).

If I got that right, what initially confused me was that I had read that while sheeting in the shoulders and hips should generally remain parallel to each other and move together, both facing the rig - probably another good example of something that is often true but with key exceptions...

If I have this correct, does it follow that since you can't set your hips until you've got real board speed to head upwind that it's really a two step process: First sheet in fully powered on a reach (hips and shoulders parallel to each other and almost parallel to board's centerline, and THEN 2) set your hips and initiate feet scissoring to begin your climb upwind?

One last point: If you're already locked down (sheeted in and raked) when you BEGIN setting your hips and scissoring, are you ALREADY fully sheeted and raked for upwind OR as you set your hips are you also at that time sheeting in aand raking back that final last bit for maximum upwind performance?

Thanks,

Jay

Roger
26th July 2007, 08:20 PM
Hi Jay,
I think you "got it" now.
Only thing I see above is the "tilting the fin slightly to windward to maximize it's lift).".
The board (and the fin as it's perpendicular to the roll axis of your board) will not be "upwind" unless you are describing the relationship of the the tip of the fin vs the root of the fin.
The entire board is rolled slightly lee rail down! This is accomplished by the lifting with the front foot.
Otherwise, I think you've got it and need to go out and try it.
Yes, I think the fact that you turn your hips forward (upwind hip moves back from parallel with the centerline of the board and the rear hip moves closer to the centerline of the board so the hips are facing more forward than the shoulders and upper body) is what makes "stting the hips" uncomfortable right at first.
Also, you are not " sheeting in with your shoulders and torso, keeping the shoulders parallel with the rig (ultimately when fully sheeted in the shoulders are parallel with the board's centerline)".
You are sheeting in with the harness and harness lines, not your shoulders and arms. You have to learn to let the rig support as much of your body weight as possible. Your arms become "adjusters" just "tweaking" the sheeting angle and rake angle to get the best performance as the wind speed and direction change.
When you have fully commited all of your weight to the rig, your feet have virtually no weight on them. they just control the roll attitude of the board and do the steering.
Once you get everything set and the board is flying upwind, you can actually steer better and get much better control by making tiny little changes in the rake and sheeting angle of the rig.
Go too high and start to slow down, unrake the rig a couple of degrees and the board will turn slightly off the wind and regain it's speed. YOu may also need to "ease" the sheeting angle slightly as the apparent wind will change as you "foot off" to regain your speed.
Then rake back fully and go back up to the hghest angle that you can maintian the best speed.
Use this to handle the lifts and lulls. If the wind gusts up stronger, crank the board a little higher by sheeting in and raking back some more. Run into a lull..... unrake the rig and ease the sheeting angle very slightly so the board foots off and keeps it's speed.
Try to keep the board at the same optimum roll angle and control the direction with more/less rear foot pressure and the "tweaks"with the rig as described above.
Hope this helps, and let me know how you do with this technique.
P.S. Looks like I'm getting my chest cracked and a new aortic valve installed very soon. The AS the cath found is cutting the flow through the valve by around 50%
6 wweks recovery period.
Hopefully I'll get a 50% increase heart efficiencyflow and feel like I'm 20 years old again.
I'll be offline here on the forums for a few days, but I can work this forum from the hospital OK, I think.
R

HappyHappyJoyJoy
27th July 2007, 12:39 AM
"chest cracked"... oh my... Good luck, really. We'll be waiting for you to come back.

Jay
29th July 2007, 02:23 PM
Roger,

My thoughts and prayers are with you for a speedy and full recovery!
Once you recover I bet you WILL feel 20 years younger and you'll take your windsurfing to an entirely new level! Thank goodness we live in a time and place where aortic stenosis can be diagnosed early and treated effectively with some of the best technology and talent available anywhere in the world. Had we lived only 100 years ago this would not have been possible...

Thanks, also, Roger for the additional input on my questions.
Regarding the fin, yes, when I referred to the "fin tilted to windward" I meant the fin tip in relation to the fin root.
Regarding the "sheeting with the shoulders", no, I didn't mean using the arms - what I meant was that with the hips turned forwards the only way keep the sail sheeted in with the harness is to rotate the torso and shoulders outwards (parallel with the sail). You're pointers on how to handle the gusts and lulls were very well stated, thanks.

Best of luck to you Roger for a quick and easy recovery. No forward loops until you're fully healed, even if you feel like it, please!

Jay

Finn
29th July 2007, 04:42 PM
Hi Roger and all,

Roger, I really hope you'll have a swift recovery and I’m sure you will be back with full force.

I have an additional question concerning the “setting” of the hips in relation to different types of harnesses. I have access to both a waist harness and to a seat harness. Usually I use the former since it is easier to hook in/out, but the few times I have managed to hook in the latter ok it seems to be more effective.

I have not yet tried it out but I imagine that it might be more difficult to “set the hips” with the seat harness than with the waist harness and/or that one have to work with slightly different angels (hips-board) with different types of harnesses. Or is that a unwarranted worry?

All the best!

Finn

Roger
29th July 2007, 10:33 PM
Hi Jay and Finn,
For Jay... Thanks for the kind words... it really helps as this is the first time I'll have ver been in a hospital for more than one day. Frankly it scares me a bit. No worries about the looping too soon. I've never been able to loop in my entire WS career (at least not on purpose ;))
so no worries there.
For Finn,
Yes, a seat harness is a bit more effective for larger sails and slalom sailing.
you can still rotate your hips with either type of harness, so that part works.
I was out yesterday on the Isonic 145 and Apollo and paying very close attention to what I was doing to change the board from across the wind to upwind. I'm going to try to do the same thing this afternoon and see if there are any things I need to add.
I've been doing it for so long, that I need to recognise exactly what it is that I do.
Yesterdays analysis seemed to suggest that "seetihg the hips" is less important than liftign with the front foot (which controls the roll angle).
But, I don't think you can effectively roll the board with the sail fully raked back and sheeted in without "setting your hips" at a different angle than your upper body.
What it feels like is that you are sailing along on a beam rach with good speed and then without changing your upper body position, or the rake/sheeting angle of the rig, you pull up and out with the front foot and increase the pressure across the top of the fin with your rear foot.
Upper body and rig stay the same, but the board rools slightly to leeward (due to lifting and pulling upwind with the front foot) and you push quite hard across the top of the fin to get it to max. horizontal lift and keep it there.
So, the description still fits as what you are doing is basically twisting the board (relaitve to the rig and your upper body) so the nose kinda pulls upwind and you push the tail away with the back foot over the top of the fin.
Board changes course to much higher upwind without losing much speed and you are then sailing upwind completely on the lift from the fin.
Hope this makes sense.
I may have more later this evening if the wind ever comes up.
R
P.S. and Finn thanks for your kind words as well.
It's alot better going into something like a "valve job" on one's heart when you know there are lots of sailors out there pulling for your full recovery.

Jay
1st August 2007, 02:43 PM
Roger,

The key thing is to be sure you really have confidence in your surgical team and center. Good cardiac surgery centers do so many of these and much more complex procedures that they really have them dialed. I think it is safe to say that this kind of surgery is now more science than art because the techniques are so highly refined. You can ask your surgeon about their statistics on how many of these procedures they have done and how many people have had complications. You will likely be amazed at how low the complication rate is. Once you're confident you are in good hands, then I suggest you do your best to have a positive attitude about your outcome. I believe studies have shown that people with a positive attitude and lower stress do better after surgery and recover quicker. We're pulling for you, Roger!

By the way, back to the topic of this thread, I was out yesterday on my FT158 in 12-15 mph wind and tried your suggestions. WOW. Your input was right on the mark and quite simple to implement. I"ve never planed upwind like that in relative comfort and control. By lifting/pulling with the front foot and pushing across the fin with the rear foot I was effectively "scissoring" the board upwind; I think the setting the hips allowed me to do that without disturbing the sail (other than slightly increasing it's rake slightly as I leaned a bit more forward in the gusts). It was fun doing "S-curves" upwind, footing off a bit in the lulls and pointing higher in the gusts, all via scissoring. Roger, you are the best, thanks so much for helping me experience that thrill!

Jay

marek
27th August 2007, 04:59 PM
Hi, this is the thread exactly on topic for me. I'm on an F-type 148 and 10.0 NS Daytona or 7.5 Gaastra Matrix. My weight is 90kg/200lbs.

I managed to get into both straps recently on my 10.0 and it felt great, however I still haven't discovered the upwind potential of my FT :-(. I can barely stay on a beam reach and the other guys are always zipping back and forth way upwind from me. I followed all the previous threads about going upwind on Formula/FT boards and I know I have to push across the fin, however this makes it difficult to sheet in the sail at the same time + the front foot feels like it is going out of the strap when I try to pull it (straps in the outer position - 1 (middle?)). I guess I have to try the trick with the hips, but any more advices are highly recommended.

Thanks,

-marek

P.S. I am also starting a new thread about the 7.5 sail replacement recommendation.

MartinJE
29th August 2007, 06:37 AM
Hi Marek

I sail an FT158 with a Naish Stealth 9.6 @ 80-85kg.

Try lifting the toes of your front foot to hook the strap to keep from popping out. If you're seriously imbalanced (being twisted to the rear) check your harness line balance (shift to the rear?) and/or sail draft (too over-powered?). Dropping the boom 1-2cm also helps to give more front foot pressure.

For upwind: pushing over the top of the fin shouldn't make sheeting-in more difficult, but easier as you can straighten the leg to get more power. Make sure you are rolling the lee rail down some to get the fin-tip tracking up wind.

Is the sail raked back enough (closing the slot - with a "race" sail)?

Try twisting the heel of your rear foot forward in the strap (I set the strap with the rear screw in the rear most plug, and the front screw in the middle plug - I wear booties all year and this setting allows me to pivot my foot in the strap to shift balance fore-aft), and swing your weight in the harness forward - you'll read "trying to look round in front of the mast" - keep the rig raked back! Keep the fin pressure on, and hook/scissor the front foot to windward.

Try and relax your upper body as much as possible; don't over-sheet and stall the rig (lose power); and, if not over powered, keep any weight in your toes of the back foot.

Hope some of this helps - Martin

marek
29th August 2007, 03:56 PM
Thanks Martin, I'll try your tips.

Funny thing, I talked to 2 Formula guys I know (one is a former pro) and both of them were kind of joking about lifting the front foot and pushing on the fin which is so emphasized here on this forum.
One said he just rakes the sail all the way to the back, and the pro said I should just lean forward (so this sort of matches what you guys say) and don't push on the fin or I'll catch a spinout.
And they both sail upwind no problem.

Anyway, I'm going to use the advices from you guys, it's just sometimes confusing when different folks on the local spot tell you different things :-(.

-marek

Roger
29th August 2007, 06:00 PM
Hi Marek,
I think, when you get a bit of experience with the techniques we are suggesting here, you will be sailing upwind with these semi and former pro formula sailors and then you will see that they indeed use the same (or something very similar with the same dynamic) techniques to go upwind as well. They've probably never analyzed how they do it, but they sure know how to do it. Biggest giveway when watching them will be the upward curve of the front foot toes. It's very hard to push down and curl your toes up at the same time.
Hope this helps,

MartinJE
30th August 2007, 05:52 AM
Hi Marek

It's quite difficult to spinout these deep fins ... but:

If you "stamp" on the fin loading it can spinout - load-up gradually;

If you try and load the fin before there's enough speed it can spin out - it's very tempting to try and claw back to windward as soon as you can on the new tack, but let the board bear-off to get the speed - then apply the techniques and load-up!

Good luck - Martin

marek
30th August 2007, 06:30 PM
Roger, good to see you back.
If you have a chance, could you also take a look at my 7.5 sail replacement thread on the Free Forum?

http://www.star-board.com/forum/showthread.php?p=14204

Thanks!

-marek

marek
3rd September 2007, 02:54 AM
Hi,

Just wanted to report back, that I started to make progress upwind :D.
I think an important part of it is that I feel more comfortable with speed and can concentrate more on my stance, etc. Before that I was just trying to survive and every time the board going onto the plane was like a big Wooaa.

Other than that, I keep the board flat, keep leaning forward a lot and ride the fin with my back foot (great feeling). Have to figure out the part with lifting my front foot without getting it out of strap.

Also, funny thing, I find it more difficult to get into a correct planing stance if I initiate a plane being hooked in (especially in a quick way when a gust is comming) - seems to be more difficult to lean to the side after being on plane and rake the sail back - I sometimes end up in water behind the board, with tha sail on me.
It seems to be easier when I just unhook, make few pumps, get on plane and lean to the side with my sail raked back (I find it easier not being limited by the harness lines) and hook in at the same time.
I was wondering if anybody has the same problem or do you have any suggestions on how to fix it as it seems to require more power than just doing that in the harness.

Thanks Roger and everybody,

-marek

P.S. I also figured that my FT makes way much greater progress upwind when not planing if I stay hooked in and keep my feet light, providing just enough pressure on my back foot.

P.S.2. Another interesting thing from today's session - somebody on my local spot suggested way *less* downhaul that I was usually applying for my NS Daytona 10.0 (I was using NS trim dots printed on the sail), I mean way less that the minimal, light wind setting and also more outhaul. Up into my surprise it wasn't bad. The sail gave more leverage during the pumps and rotated better. I wonder what do you think?

P.S.3. I've just discovered another nice (in my opinion) thing my FT and a large, 10.0 sail offers - I can get on plane in light winds when there is almost no chop - which translates to a very smooth ride. Easier uphauls and less violent crashes. With the lighter conditions and usually nice weather it is just a pure pleasure. :cool:

Roger
3rd September 2007, 03:37 AM
Hi Marek,
Not sure where you got the idea that it's necessary/desireable to hook in before your board is fully on plane.
As you've found, hooking in eliminates any big full body type pumping to loosen your board up and onto a plane.
So, maybe just worry about getting your front foot in the footstrap, then pump with all your weight on the back foot in the middle of your board.
Then when the board is up and planing, THEN hook in.
Then put your back foot in the footstrap. You cannot get into the back footstrap very well until you are hooked in, otherwise you will have to put weight on your front foot instead of transferring your weight up through the rig and down to the mast foot through your harness and lines.

P.S. #1 Hmmmm.... I'd think you would make alot better progress upwind if you stay unhooked, move back a ways on the board and move off center to the upwind side to tip your board upwind rail down, using the shape in the bottom of the board to take you upwind. In order to do this, you cannot very well be hooked in as you need to carry your rig fairly far forward to keep the rig powered up. Then it's a simple balance between how much you tip your board and how much forward you carry your rig.

P.s. #2 What mast are you using in your North Daytona 10.5 m2? The recommended North 100% mast I hope (but I don't think so).
With any other mast than the recommended mast the "tuning indicators just don't work.
Why? Because the tuning marks for downhaul up in the top of the sail only work with the specified mast or a mast that has pretty much identical bend characteristics. Any other bend or mast spec. and the mast may bend at way too little or way too much downhaul tension and either way, the tuning marks won't work.

P.S. #3 Yes, the F-Types are wonderful for cruising very fast on really flat water.
Hope this helps,

MartinJE
3rd September 2007, 01:41 PM
Hi Marek

I usual try to get on the plane with my FT158 using Roger's suggestion: front foot in strap; pump; plane; hook-in; back foot.

However, if there's enough wind power and I'm tired then I'll: front foot in; hook-in; ooch the board (use the feet to push the board diagonally forward across the water in smooth pumps and/or use the back foot to bounce the board enough to get the rocker over the bow wave) - as the board accelerates slide the foot nearer and nearer to the rear strap plus small sail pumps (with the back hand to keep accelerating).

If it's over powered then I prefer to get front foot in; plane; back foot in; hook in - once the board's up and planing the pressures come off and it's easier to hook in. As you've probably noticed when it's gusty or overpowered the pressures on these big boards seem "huge" until they're freely planing - just keep that lee rail from digging in! I feel more in control if I hook in last.

Luck - Martin

marek
3rd September 2007, 03:43 PM
I usual try to get on the plane with my FT158 using Roger's suggestion: front foot in strap; pump; plane; hook-in; back foot.

However, if there's enough wind power and I'm tired then I'll: front foot in; hook-in; ooch the board (use the feet to push the board diagonally forward across the water in smooth pumps and/or use the back foot to bounce the board enough to get the rocker over the bow wave)

Yes, I do exactly the same thing for the same reason - if there is enough wind and I don't want to get tired with full body pumps. Ooching is funny, I just use my feet to gently slide the board forward and there she goes on plane.

Roger - thanks for the tip about the mast. You are right, I'm not using the dedicated mast (I use 50% cc "Yes" mast, will upgrade to 75% this year - interesting thing though, 75 "Yes" is 0.05kg *heavier* than 55: http://www.yes-sails.com/categorie.asp?IDCategoria=2).

-marek

Roger
3rd September 2007, 07:53 PM
Hi Marek,
Hmmmm.... not sure you got my point there, but I hope you did.
You need to decide what brand of sails you are going to use, and get a mast (s) that are as fully compatible with your sails as possible.
You can save money by getting whatever masts are available, but are you really saving money.......?
If the mast does not perform correctly in your sail, then you've devalued the sail some.
If your sail does not perform on the mast that you have, then you've devalued the sail some. Overall, you've saved some money, yes, but now you have a mast and a sail that cannot give you the full performance potential.
Getting the absolute "most" performance from both the sail and the mast has to be worth more than the money you might save with incompatability and lesser performance from both the mast and the sail.
When you get the "best" match from all your components, and they work together to make your sailing pretty much effortless, you will never want to sail "mix and not quite matched" components again.
Hope this helps,

marek
3rd September 2007, 08:19 PM
Hi Roger. I got your point. What I meant is I like staying hooked in all the time to save energy. But as I learned here, with the marginal wind it's just too difficult to get on plane that way (as you can't do really deep pumps being limited by your harness lines).
When the wind is good though, I can stay hooked in all the time and ooch the board to get on plane.

As for the mast, I would have to have 2 490 masts for my Gaastra and NS sail, so yes, it's a budged issue.
But I always rig the sail at the dealer's before buying the new sail or at least ask if it'll work with a given mast.

Thanks again, this thread now a looks like a compedium about going upwind on F-type :).

-marek

Roger
3rd September 2007, 09:16 PM
Hi Marek,
"But I always rig the sail at the dealer's before buying the new sail or at least ask if it'll work with a given mast."
You sure trust your dealer alot more than I trust mine.
I go one step further and check the sail, the sail bag, the specification sheets, and the
mast's specifications (printed on the mast usually) to determine the compatability.
Even then, I sometimes find that there's some degree of incompatability and I have to either use something "creative" or get a mast tested and only use a "tested" mast for a particular sail.
I guess what I'm trying to say, is that Gaastra masts and North masts are quite different.
What mast does North Recommend for your 10.? m2 Daytona? What are the specs for this mast?
What mast does Gaastra recommend as the "best" mast for your smaller sail? What are the "specs." for this mast?
If you go either North or Gaastra, then you will need only one mast, of each size
(430/460/490/520) but make sure the mast meets the specifications for the sails you purchase.
I cannot begin to tell you how much difference this can make in the performance of your rigs, overall.
Also, since we are talking 490 masts here, what prevents you from getting a 100% mast. Much lighter, probably alot closer to the test specifications.
Then you can begin to get the full performance and range from your sails.
Hope this helps,

marek
3rd September 2007, 10:31 PM
What mast does North Recommend for your 10.? m2 Daytona? What are the specs for this mast?
What mast does Gaastra recommend as the "best" mast for your smaller sail? What are the "specs." for this mast?


North:
IMCS 28-32 490+CX (carbon extender), they don't say anything about %
They started this "minimal # of masts" policy recently, like you can rig most of their sizes with just 2 masts.
Gaastra:
IMCS 29, 490, 75%

Both North and Gaastra are constant curve and so are many other masts around. My mast is 55% (will upgrade to 75%) 29 imcs, 490cm cc.
I have to tell you, that Matrix on an original Gaastra mast (ok, 30%, but with correct imcs specs) rigged horribly and my dealer recommended replacing it with a mast from a different manufacturer.


Also, since we are talking 490 masts here, what prevents you from getting a 100% mast. Much lighter, probably alot closer to the test specifications.
Then you can begin to get the full performance and range from your sails.
Hope this helps,

Well, just one thing besides the budget - I've heard they are way more fragile (crashes, hits) than 75s, so I prefer to trade off some performance and have a more durable mast. Unless you have a different opinion?

-marek

marek
3rd September 2007, 11:33 PM
P.s. #2 What mast are you using in your North Daytona 10.5 m2? The recommended North 100% mast I hope (but I don't think so).
With any other mast than the recommended mast the "tuning indicators just don't work.
Why? Because the tuning marks for downhaul up in the top of the sail only work with the specified mast or a mast that has pretty much identical bend characteristics. Any other bend or mast spec. and the mast may bend at way too little or way too much downhaul tension and either way, the tuning marks won't work.


OK, sorry for beating this topic up, but I've been thinking about these marks (on my way home) and I can't see how this is the case.
The marks are there so you know how much downhaul to apply. So you pull until you get a desired leech loseness. I though whatever mast you have, the ultimate goal is to make the leech loose down to the marks.
Even with a different mast, if the leech is loose within the correct area (marked on the sail) the sail is trimmed correctly.

?

-marek

Roger
4th September 2007, 12:37 AM
Hi Marek,
Sorry, I wish it were that simple, but it's not.
Most windsurfing masts are "constant curve" and they bend at a 12% rate.
Then we have MCS (Mast Check System) number designations and IMCS (Indexed Mast Check System) numbers as well.
The top can be pretty soft (like 14-15% and have a stiffer bottom section so you get the 12% overall. Or, the bottom section could be somewhat softer and easier to bend, but the top section could be stiffer. We still get 12% bend percentage.
The MCS/IMCS numbers are simple "deflections" at the 1/4;1/2; and 3/4 distances based on supporting the mast 5 cm from each end and hanging the weight in the middle.
You can get alot more (or less) bend in the top or the bottom, at the same deflection distance with the test weight.
Sailworks and Maui Sails (and other mast/sailmakers as well I'm sure) use a mast test system that actually bends the mast along a fixed track with end loading pressure just like we bend them in our sails.
They've come up with some pretty amazing bends when testing various masts.
So, let's look at what is specified for your 10.0 m2 North Daytona.
At the time the Daytonas were designed, North was on a "minimum mast" program so they designed all of their sails (besides the top of the line Warp Race sails that only worked on top of the line Viper 100% carbon race masts) for only a couple of masts.
A 430 cm IMCS 21-23 and a 460 cm IMCS 24-26. For larger sails like your Daytona 10.0 North sold a CX (50 cm Carbon Extender) piece that you put under the 460 mast to extend it to 510 cm. So my guess (without some serious and detailed testing) would be that your 10.0 m2 North Daytona was really designed for a 510 cm semi "flex top" mast made up from the 460 cm IMCS 24-26 std. mast with the 50 cm CX extender under it.
Think your 490 IMCS 28-30 Yes 55% mast bends exactly the same as a 510 mast with a softer top?
So, since the sail was designed on the 460 mast + 50 cm CX (and maybe even a "drop shape mast" just to make things even more interesting) the tuning marks were added to the sail based on the how the sail was to be tuned on this "stacked up 460cm +50 cm" mast. Your Yes 490 cm IMCS 28-30 mast may be entirely different.
I'd guess stiffer in the very bottom as the CX probably does not bend) and quite a bit stiffer in the top section, so you would be taking alot of draft out of the lower part of the sail in order to get the leech loose in to the tuning marks.
I think my "theory" here is totaly bourne out by your recent rigging experiences.
You downhauled alot less, and left the upper leech tight.
This put alot more draft down lower in the sail because you had been "over downhauling" much more than needed as you tried to loosen the upper leech to the tuning marks.
And your sail rotated alot better and gave you alot more low end power, because the lower panels in your sail were now rigged correctly. The bottom of the sail is where the power is made, the top of the sail adds very little power, but can add alot of "pitchiness" or a top heavy feeling.
Since you are sailing your F-Type in very marginal conditions, I think rigging so you get the best low wind power, down low in the sail, is going to be much better than taking most of the power out of the bottom of the sail to get the correct twist in the top on a mast that does not bend much like the mast the sail was designed on.
Hpe this helps,

marek
4th September 2007, 01:46 AM
So, let's look at what is specified for your 10.0 m2 North Daytona.
At the time the Daytonas were designed, North was on a "minimum mast" program so they designed all of their sails (besides the top of the line Warp Race sails that only worked on top of the line Viper 100% carbon race masts) for only a couple of masts.
A 430 cm IMCS 21-23 and a 460 cm IMCS 24-26. For larger sails like your Daytona 10.0 North sold a CX (50 cm Carbon Extender) piece that you put under the 460 mast to extend it to 510 cm. So my guess (without some serious and detailed testing) would be that your 10.0 m2 North Daytona was really designed for a 510 cm semi "flex top" mast made up from the 460 cm IMCS 24-26 std. mast with the 50 cm CX extender under it.
Think your 490 IMCS 28-30 Yes 55% mast bends exactly the same as a 510 mast with a softer top?
So, since the sail was designed on the 460 mast + 50 cm CX


Thanks, this makes things way more clear now. A small correction, though, as you keep saying "460 + 50cm CX" - it is 490 actually. 490 + CX (not 460) _is_ the recommended mast length for a 10.0 NS Daytona 2007.
The other choice (marked as "OK", not "best") is 510 (I know, 490+50 is not 510).

-marek

Roger
4th September 2007, 02:41 AM
Hi Marek,
Where did you find the mast specification for your North Daytona..... I looked all over the web, but most of the North sites have no archives.
R

marek
4th September 2007, 03:34 AM
Yeah, too bad they don't have it. I'll email them about it! :)

But you can still get it from Google cache.
Just enter north sails daytona into google and click "Cached" instead of the actual link.
You should get here:
http://209.85.135.104/search?q=cache:deo1r7DmLw4J:www.north-windsurf.com/sails/daytona.en+ns+daytona+490+cx+site:.com

I'll copy&paste it here (won't look pretty, though):

The new high performance Race Slalom DAYTONA carries the genes of the WARP F2006 World Cup material and excels in overwhelming race power, just like its highly praised predecessor!

The fastest NORTH SAILS Race Slalom sail sets new standards in speed, rotation and rigging comfort. Tthe DAYTONA reaches top speeds on all race courses and catapults GPS and occasional regatta pilots into the pole position. Nevertheless, the new Daytona is surprisingly easy to handle for a missile of its caliber, which is another reason for its miraculous speed. Plus: extra amounts of tough X.PLY cloth make the new DAYTONA even more durable than all its predecessors.
KEY FEATURES
TT.TOP II: increased wind range due to a more active twist and better control separator enhanced aerodynamics PLUS easy water start due to CONICAL.AERO.SLEEVE.DESIGN separator HYPER.CAM - the first hard camber that rotates as smoothly as a soft cam

Find your nearest dealer
SPECS 5,4 6,0 6,6 7,3 7,8 8,4 9,0 10,0
Boom max (m) 1,84 1,91 2,01 2,13 2,18 2,29 2,37 2,53
Luff max (m) 4,40 4,56 4,66 4,88 5,00 5,23 5,36 5,50
Batt./Camb. 7 / 3 7 / 3 7 / 3 7 / 3 7 / 3 7 / 3 7 / 3 7 / 3
Vario Top X X -- -- -- -- -- --
IMCS 21-25 25-21 24-26 24-26 25-28 25-28 25-28 28-32
Best Mast*
Best/altern.
length (cm) 430/460 460/430 460 460 460/490 460 +CX/490 460 +CX/ 490 +CX/520

Some online stores keep the above specs as well.
The required best/ok mast is 490+CX/520.

-marek