View Full Version : Tuttle/Deep Tuttle Cock Up

Roly Gardner
9th August 2007, 09:58 PM
Hi All

Think I have made a noobish mistake. I have a stock 52 cm Starboard fin for my Carve 144. I have been advised to buy a smaller fin and have recently bought a Starboard 28 cm fin but now realise that this is normal tuttle as opposed to deep tuttle. Doh!

Is there much I can do about this or am I snookered? I also would like to know what the pros and cons are for the smaller fin. Is it going to make the board more or less responsive for instance? Is it going to be harder to head up wind? Is there a sail range that each fin will work best with? I now have a 5m a 5.7m and a 6.5m.

many Thanks

PS Hope you are making a good early recovery Roger.

9th August 2007, 11:07 PM
Hi Roly,
Roger will give you more detailed answers but I can already tell you that there is no problem to use Tuttle fins in deep tuttle boxes. You only have to find longer screws. The opposite is impossible of course.
As for the fin length, 28 cm seems to me very short for this big board, but for a very small sail and high wind it could, perhaps? work . It will be difficult to head upwind in gusty winds.

9th August 2007, 11:15 PM
Sorry, I just saw that all Carves have normal tuttle boxes, then either you sell your fin, either you cut the head shorter and place new nuts at the right place if you really want to keep this deep tuttle fin....

10th August 2007, 03:17 AM
Hi Roly, and Frigobox,
For Roly,
Frigobox was correct in his suggestions, you can put a std. Tuttle fin in a Deep Tuttle fin box, no problems, other than a minimal amount of "fitting" which you would probably have to do with almost any fin.
He's also correct in that you cannot put a deep Tuttle fin in a std. Tuttle box as the top of the root is 18.00 mm (0.709") too tall to fit.
I'm sure your 28 cm fin did not come with a deep tuttle root (that would be ridiculous as a 28 cm fin does not need the additional support.
I'm a little puzzled as to why you bought such a small fin for your Carve 144. If the stock fin is 52 cm, as "smaller" fin, for smaller sails would be something in the 46-48 cm range.
What year model is your Carve 144.....2006 or 2007?
Here's the secifications for the '06 Carve 144.
'06 Carve 144
Volume: 144 litres
Length: 256 cm.
Width: 78 cm.
1 foot off the tail width: 52.1 cm.
Weight (WOOD): 8.3 kg
Weight (DRAM) 8.6 kg
Fin Box: Tuttle
Stock Fin: Drake Freeride Flow 480
Sail Size Range: 5.8-9.5
Here's the specifications for the 2007 Carve 144:
'07 Carve 144
Volume: 144 cm
Length: 252 cm
Width: 78.0 cm
1 foot off tail width: 52.1 cm
Weight (Technora) 8.6 Kg.
Weight (WOOD) 8.15 kg.
Sail Range: 5.8-9.5
Stock Fin:Freeride Drive II 490
Fin Range: 42-54 cm
Fin Box: Tuttle

I think the 28 cm fin is definitely too small for a board that's 78 cm wide with a 1 foot off of 52.1 cm.
You will "spin out" the 28 cm fin way to easily as it's really a good size fin for about a 90-100 liter board with a5.5 m2 or smaller rig.
If you can take the 28 cm fin back, I would suggest you do, and see if you can get a fin about 42-48 cm (actually one 40-42 and one 48-50 cm would be the best.
Not sure how you got a 52 cm fin unless your Carve 144 is really a Carve 145 from 2005?
Hope this helps,
P.S. Haven't had the surgery yet..... next Friday (Aug. 17th is the scheduled date).
Thanks for your concerns, and I will be back here on the forums as soon as the docs will let me.

10th August 2007, 01:30 PM
Hallo Roly! We use 39cm Duo Freeride in 100% carbon. I think that
should be the shortest fin. Not enough deep water in Strand Horst.
I use to 9,3m² sail. Nitro 4. Board is a ON 305 . Shape fromLorch.Look:

10th August 2007, 09:57 PM
Hi Roly,
The suggested Lessacher fin would also be a good choice.
I use some of Wolfgang's weed fins and they are really good.
Can you tell us why it was suggested that you get a smaller fin?
Do you have water depth issues where you sail?
Hope this helps,

Roly Gardner
15th August 2007, 03:12 PM
Morning Roger
Nice new site. Thank yo for your thoughts on the appropriate fin for my board. Firstly my board is the Carve 145 2005 model and does have the deep tuttle fitting. Yes this 28 cm fin that I bought has the standard tuttle fitting I believe. I was advised by one of the more experienced sailors at my club to change down my fin to around 30 cm. This I think has something to do with the way our beach falls away very steeply particularly at high tide. For a shorty like me, it means that beach starts are akin to water starts, if you see what I mean. By the time I am out far enough to clear the 52cm fin I am in quite deep water. Maybe, I do not really know, but that was the advice.

I have seen a Fin Works Weed 16 which is around 41 cm I think and wonder if this is the sort of thing I should be looking for? I do not really want to sacrifice much upwind capability, if this is a possible consequence of reducing the fin size, as I have only recently been able to slog upwind as it is.

The 28cm is now for sale and I have learned my lesson. Run stuff by you on this forum BEFORE purchasing kit!


15th August 2007, 07:24 PM
Hi Roly,
The 16" Finworks (40.64 Cm) will certainly be alot better than the 29 cm.
Which FinWorks design is the fin you are looking at?


I'm not sure how tall you are or how long your legs are but beach starting a 52 cm fin can be difficult as it's hard to get your foot up that high.
I'm sure with a little more practice, you'll be beach starting the stock 52 cm fin with no problems.
I'd guess alot of the problem has more to do with learning a new technique than it does actually getting your foot up onto the board.
If you are slogging upwind (rather than planing upwind "on the fin") then the size of the fin really won't make much difference because you are using the shape in the bottom of your board (the rocker) to get upwind, not the fin.
When you are plainng all the time, hooked in to your harness all the time and in both footstraps, get back with me here and I will explain how to sail upwind on "fin lift" and you will not need to worry about "getting downwinded anymore.
Why are you only slogging?
What's your windspeed and what's your sail size?
Hope this helps,

Roly Gardner
15th August 2007, 08:52 PM
Hi Roger

The style of fin is the weed fin although the web site did not show a 16 which this one is. I am only 5' 6'' with short legs so yes this is my problem! However, I take the point on technique and learning a new skill. I managed to get up on my third or fourth try last time I was out but have yet to get an opportunity to replicate it as the wind has been very big of late.

You helped me with the foot steering, so yes I am using the rocker not the fin to get up wind. I have read some of your earlier posts on 'fin lift' and riding the fin' so understand the principle if not the application so I will leave this for another time once I have advanced sufficiently.

I am 'only slogging' because I tend to go out in marginal conditions,say 13/15 mph and my biggest sail is the 6.5. I intend to get a 7.5 in due course. I think I lack the necessary technical skill to plane in marginal conditions, even if this is possible with my current rig in 13/15 mph. Any thoughts? Should I be able to get in the harness and straps in low winds like this? I find the board sinks quickly when I try to move back on the board - maybe a little early? I am again showing my inexperience here as to basic principles I fear.

Any tips gratefully received, as always.


15th August 2007, 09:17 PM
Hi Roly,
Yes, a 7.5 m2 or larger rig would really help in 13-15 mph, but at a steady 15 mph, your 6.5 should be enough to get you planing if you are rigging it for power.
What is your weight?
If you are 5'6" tall (hey, that's my height as well) and weigh =< 180 lbs. your 6.5 (rigged full) should be enough to drag you up onto a plane if you keep your board really flat (rail to rail) and move back on your board "progressively". You can move back at a rate that keeps your board accellerating. If you don't continue to move back you may find that the nose isn't getting up high enough to incline your boards planing surfaces correctly and your board will "hang" and not accellerate more until you move back slightly more.
Or, you could be moving back a little too quickly and the nose pops up and your planing surfaces are inclined too much for the board to plane effciently.
Try to tie the rate that you move back to the accelleration of the board.
It sounds like you aren't beach starting when you have "big" wind. Beach starting (other than getting things aligned) gets easier as the wind comes up. So does waterstarting, and with only 13 knots of wind, you really aren't up to a windspeed that would cause any problems. Practice "aligning" your board, holding onto only the boom (or front hand on the mast rear hand on the boom) and turning your board around 360 deg. in both directions. Soon you will begin to develop the "feel" for what you need to do with the rig to get your board to align perfectly right next to your back leg. Then just step on and off you go.
If the rig is twisting around and trying to pitch you over to the leeward side, you are putting too much force in it. Open the rig up so it just supports itself, then learn to steer the board by the mast foot. Slight downward backhand pressure turns your board upwind, slight pushing or raising the front hand drives the nose downwind. Pretty easy once you get the feel for the balance.
Hope this helps,

Roly Gardner
15th August 2007, 10:01 PM
Thanks Roger,

I got the hang of steering the board with mast foot pressure for beach starting quite intuitively(for a change!) I was told to hold the boom like handlebars on a push bike which helped a little bit. As did bearing away slightly before I hopped on as I found my leg was pushing the back of the board away from me and the nose into the wind.

Thank you for the early planing advice. I will experiment with moving back on the board and getting the nose up and out of the water a bit. I weigh 175lbs btw so hope to be able to get planing early in my most common conditions here.

Any thoughts on the Weed Fin 16? Looks like quite a funny profile to me being so racked back. If it would do it might be a little easier for me.


15th August 2007, 10:43 PM
Hi Roly,
Ummmm..... a 16" weed fin..... that's going to have alot of area and stick behind the tail of your board quite a bit.
Do you have weeds or shallow sandbars where you are sailing? If yes, then the 16" Finworks would be OK, but it's a little on the large side of things for a Carve 144 with 7.5/6.5/5.8 m2 rigs.
I think a 14.5" Finworks weed fin would be much better overall.
If you don't have to deal with weeds or sandbars, then I would suggest looking for either a shorter Drake Freeride fin or a vertical pointer slalom fin in about 38-48 cm size range.
As far as your beach starts, you don't need to put your foot on the board until you step on, and if you ensure that the tail of the board is right in tight on your back leg, you can get your foot all the way to the middle of the board. Then you won't "push the tail away" at all. That's the trick here. Get so good at "steering" the board with the rig (thru the mast foot) that you can bring the board right in close, put your foot on the board over the centerline and then you don't have any problems as the board simply sails away
on a beam reach.
Hope this helps,

Roly Gardner
15th August 2007, 11:22 PM
Thanks Roger,

That helps alot. Will keep my open for the Drake fin you mention.

Best of luck Friday in case I do not post before.