PDA

View Full Version : Straps position on my Carve 111 [pictures]


marek
13th December 2007, 06:12 AM
Hi Roger and everybody.

So my new (actually used, 2004) Carve 111 has just arrived. What a board! :D Even my wife said it's pretty. It's in mint condition (except the footstraps) and I feel I made a really good deal.
I was also shocked how long it is comparing to my FT 148, how delicate the nose and stern feel, and how little space on the stern is there. It also looks to me like the FT has more new features, like cut-outs at the bottom's back, doomed deck, etc.

Here is a pic:
http://www.cs.stevens.edu/~mzawadzk/carve/carve_vs_ft148.jpg
By the way, what are the two long, parallel narrow cut-ins that go at the bottom (the other side, not on the pictures) from the nose through like a half of the board?

Anyway, back to the straps; I know the outside/back straps setup is more slalom-oriented and inside/forward is freeride/wave but how does it really translate into casual blasting out there?
I mean I want speed and performance, but I admit I also want some comfort and enjoyable freeride with this board, too ;-). What is your experience and pros/cons of both setups?

I set the footstraps in the outside/middle position:
http://www.cs.stevens.edu/~mzawadzk/carve/carve_straps.jpg

A local guy said I'll have problems with my heels getting in the way with water and actually it seems that my feet may stick out a little bit. He said I should set them more inside, especially the back ones. What is your opinion?

In the meantime, I also moved the straps on my F-type 148 all the way back and outside:
http://www.cs.stevens.edu/~mzawadzk/carve/ft_straps.jpg


I don't have a chance to try the boards now and I'm afraid I may be forced to wait until Spring, so all your comments in the meantime would be really appreciated.

Thanks,

-marek

Roger
13th December 2007, 08:59 AM
Hi Marek,
What's wrong with the footstraps? They look hardly used.
The port side rear strap needs to be straightened at the back (check out the anti-twist teeth under the strap) and tightened, but other than that it's just exactly the way I would set it up if I were going to sail it. Same with your F-type!
The long "runners" down the bottom from the front are there so when you do "willy skippers" and jump and turn the board around in mid air, then land the board with you standing on the nose instead of the tail. Those little ridges will provide some "nose bite" when you develop your free style skills that far. The also work (sort of) if you lose your fin and need to sail back in (this is a safety tip.....! With no fin in the rear, nearly all boards are far easier to sail backwards (standing on the nose) than in the normal direction. Works much better than dragging a harness etc., and it's something you can practice on light wind days, just in case.
Since I think you may have discoverd that pushing across the top of the fin and keeping your board slightly "upwind rail up" gets you upwind the fastest and at the highest angle, you don't need to worry about your heels dragging. There will be 2" or more clearance under your heels when you sail the Carve 111.
At first, it's going to seem like the Carve 111 is missing it's fin since you only have your experience with the much larger fins on the F-Type.
So, if I recall correctly. didn't you got a larger fin with the board?
If not, pick up a good 38-42 cm fin and use that to start out, until you learn to get the Carve 111 up to speed BEFORE you start pressuring the fin much.
Cutouts under the stern of the Carves didn't start until about 2006 or maybe 2007.
The '07 boards with the more Isonic like cutaways and stern shape were a pretty radical departure for the Carve which was the "bread and butter" best board for all reasons and seasons for many years, so not many drastic changes were made until 2006-2007.
Since you have most of your experience on the FT-148, I think you will find the Carve 111 is totally comfortable and easy to sail, right out of the box.
And, it will be a dream to jibe in comparison to the FT-148.
The only hurdles you have to get over right at first are learning to be light on the fin (until you get some speed and the water starts moving past the fin enough to generate sufficient lift) and learning to keep the Carve going straight.
Tiny little changes in the roll atitude that didn't have much effect on your FT, will really make the Carve want to turn.
So, be steady, be easy on the fin, wait for enough wind, otherwise you will be kinda disappointed until you do get enough wind, and we are talking about 14 knots or more with a 7.5 m2 rig to really get into the Carve 111's sweet range. 6.5m2 and about 16 knots is going to blow you away (not like "out of control, but like blowing you mind it's so sweet!), 5.5m2 and 20 knots is where you are going to start wanting an even smaller board (don't tell your wife I said this, but it's pretty much inevitable, if you get that sort of conditions.)
Sure you can take the Carve 111 all the way to 24-25 knots with a 4.5-5.5 m2 rig, but something smaller will be making the same kind of differences you are going to discover between your F-Type 148 and the Carve 111.
Hope this helps,

marek
13th December 2007, 11:53 PM
Roger, thanks for another great answer.
I'll fix the rear strap in a sec.
Can't wait to try the board!

-marek

P.S. Yes, it came with a larger fin, 38cm Drake Freeride. BTW which fin would you recommend as a second, smaller (~32cm) fin I could use with 6.0 and maybe smaller sail (for now I have 7.5 and 6.0 for this board and don't plan to buy a smaller one anytime soon [or so I hope :D]).

Roger
14th December 2007, 02:46 AM
Hi Marek,
You are most welcome.
I think you are going to really enjoy the Carve 111. Carves were always very forgiving
boards that really helped developing sailors to ramp up their skills pretty quickly.
Very easy to ride!
When you start jumping or doing big chop hops, then you might want to move the footstraps inboard, but as long as you are "blasting" and want to go fast and upwind, the outboard and back positions are best.
A 32 cm fin would be about right for your 6.0 m2.
Hope this helps,

marek
14th December 2007, 02:56 AM
A 32 cm fin would be about right for your 6.0 m2.

OK, but what type/manufacturer should I be looking for? (I'm gonna try the 38 with 6.0 first anyway, but I may be looking for a smaller fin in the meantime)

And BTW - from your experience - which footstraps did you like best? I see a lot of Dakines around, but I remember having their seat harness (low-end model though) and it was very uncomfortable, sold it and bought NP 3D seat - extremely good choice for me).

-marek

Roger
14th December 2007, 07:58 AM
Hi Marek,
I like the looks of the True Ames Convert and Teardrop, as well as the Gsport Freeride and Freespeed.
Hmmmm.... what's the matter with the good looking footstraps that are already on your Carve 111?
Hope this helps,

marek
14th December 2007, 04:05 PM
Hi Marek,
I like the looks of the True Ames Convert and Teardrop, as well as the Gsport Freeride and Freespeed.


Thanks for that, they look cool. I noticed they generally come in 2 types - more straight slalom fins and "curled" freerides (aside from weed fins I disregard right now).
What are the pros/cons in everyday riding of both designs?
(Personally, if I I were to choose now I'd get Gsport Freespeed 34cm for my 6.0 and smaller sails - but honestly I have no experience with fins whatsoever).


Hmmmm.... what's the matter with the good looking footstraps that are already on your Carve 111?

Not visible on the pics, but the port side rear strap has the blue cover cloth ripped off (I sort of wrapped it under the velcro, but it will surely rip off completely exposing the black foam-like material below).

-marek

Roger
14th December 2007, 10:40 PM
Hi Marek,
OK, here's my version of fins 101....
Fins that have a more vertical planform (not so curved on the leading edge) tend to go upwind better, but they are not what you would call "loose and turny".
Fins that have a fully curving leading edge tend to be more "loose and turny" but do not
go upwind as well.
Fins with a very straight vertical planform (Formula Race Fins, TA Series 2000, Gsport SR-6b and F series, tend to be the fastest and go upwind the best, but they don't jibe well and do not handle bump and jump type maneuvers very well.
So, you look at the board, and what it does best, then you look at the fin and what it does best, then you choose how "radical" you think your maneuvers and moves are going to be and you select a fin that compliments what you are doing (the sailing discipline, i.e. racing, slalom, bump and jump, speed, waves), what the board was designed to do best, and use a fin that gives you dependable lift (or lack of lift in wave/freestyle fins) so you don't spin out, but can turn as freely as the board is capable of.
Then you select a size that will work well with the sail size you are going to use and the sailor weight (bigger heavier sailors use/need larger fins as a rule).

OK, didn't see the torn FS cover. I like the DaKine Primo straps, but just about anything from DaKine is pretty good.
Hope this helps,

Roly Gardner
7th January 2008, 11:24 PM
Hi All,

Happy New Year.

Nice boards Marek! I have the Carve 145 (2004 aswell) and love it. The F Type looks really cool too. A general question really. Is the F Type hard to sail particularly in comparison to say my board? I take it that this is a 'Formula' type board. I suppose you cannot compare it with your new Carve 111 yet as you have not had the chance to get out on the water. I am feeling a little restless as Spring seems a long way off atm. Too cold for me at present, although some of the lads have been sailing all Winter!

Roly

Roger
8th January 2008, 08:24 AM
Hi Roly,
I'll let Marek respond to this as well.
The F-Type is nearly as wide as a formula board, but the rail shape, rockerline and
tail shape are all "detuned" a bit to make the F-Type significantly easier to sail than a
true Formula board.
The F-Types won't get planing quite as early as a true formula board (or the Apollo) but
it will plane earlier than the Carves or the Futura or smaller Isonics due to the wider tail width.
Hope this helps,

marek
8th January 2008, 04:04 PM
Well, is the F-type hard to sail comparing to your 145 Carve...
Can't really answer that as I haven't tried the other board, but I'd say if you are talking about serious exploiting the FT I'd say yes, it is considered a more technical board.
It allows for amazing upwind angles.

I tried a 130 or so freeride board ones and it was plug&play comparing to my FT. It has a large, powerful fin, straps are very out and back and it can get pretty handful at chop, unless you have a 10.0 sail which will get you on plane on flat water - with 7.5 and my skills/weight it gets more demanding.


Anyhow I love the board, haven't mastered it yet, but sometimes when I get dialed in it just blasts upwind with great speed and wants to stay on plane all the time. The other freeride board I mentioned felt pretty boring comparing to it.

Just my 2c.

-marek

Roly Gardner
16th January 2008, 11:11 PM
Hi Roger, Hi Marek,

Thanks for your thoughts.I suspect I will have to beg a go on one of the guys at my club to see what the differences are between the two boards.Academic to a certain extent as I have a long way to go on the Carve. Last year was my first full season and got planing and beach starting. This year waterstarts and gybing skills I hope! Thats if it ever stops raining and warms up here!

Cheers both.

Roly

mitchiedog
26th February 2008, 07:18 AM
Hi Roger
While we are talking Carves here I thought i'd ask a couple questions about my experience with the carve 131. Ive had the board 2 years but feel like its only the last couple of weekends ive started to enjoy it (ie im learning). Part of the problem has been that Ive been sailing it at the upper end of its range (6.0m) and now I have a nice 7.0 North natural freeride sail and its a lot nicer. Still very choppy in these conditions, too much board really. (15-22 knots), stock 48cm fin.
what I've noticed is that when planing I'm having trouble maintaining side/side trim. The windward rail tends to sink a bit. I tell myself that I'm not committing enough to the harness and try to sink into it more, but that seems to kill speed a bit. My ankles start to drag and the result is that the board makes a slow arc to windward where I usually stall and scramble out of harness and footstraps. To combat this I've started to pull my backfoot out of the back strap and place it in front and more centreline. This helps because I can press on my backfoot toes to try and flatten the board off. (not ideal situation though, with foot out of strap). Pushing my front foot away also helps, I guess because it bears off, so the boards gets better speed and lift.
By the way, the mast is set more forward in the track (the board is virtually uncontrollable in centre or back with the 7.0m). Any thing else you suggest to help board trim?
thanks
mike

mondy
26th February 2008, 11:43 AM
mitchie:
try moving your harness lines back? if u shorten them too, you'll either ctapult or fly downwind like a rocket! add some mast foot pressure and i don't think u'll round upwind anymore.... don't get scared, lock in , work those abs and unlock ur shoulders! thats my 2 cents, but i might be wrong! with those knots and a 7m, u should be flyng! p.s. i have my mast foot back 80% of the way in the same conditions, not forward, so i hit the chop with the rear part of the board.
once you get the trim right, u turn up and downwind by curling your toes or flattening the board with your feet.
ciao,
mondy

Roger
27th February 2008, 08:05 AM
Hi Mitciedog,
What is you weight?
I'm a bit puzzled trying to balance the numbers you've provided us here?
First, where are you placing your mast foot with your 6.0 m2 and 7.0 m2 rigs?
Mondy hit on this, and it could be critical.
What other fins (besides the stock 48 cm Drake) do you have?
At what windspeed do you rig down from your 7.0 m2 to your 6.0 m2?
Are you tuning each sail quite a bit as the wind comes up....i.e. adding more downhaul and adjusting the outhaul on the 7.0 m2 rig as it gets hard to handle and then rigging down to the 6.0 m2 and beginning to tune it with downhaul and outhaul?
Here's what I see:
In 15-18 knots, if you are 90 kg. (198 lbs.) or greater, then you might get away with continuing to sail your 7.0 m2, but you would normally be faster and more comfortable on a 5.5-6.0 m2 rig at about 18 knots..
At a full 20 knots (and up to 22 knots) again, you could sail a 6.0m2, but a 5.0-5.5 m2 would be easier.
So, you can see my dilemma here.
Give me a little more information and maybe I can see where to suggest to you to get a better balance on your Carve 131, but as you suggest, at 18 knots, the Carve 131 is at the very top end of it's range, and you want to sail it up into the low 20's.
As far as the "rounding up" and heading upwind until you stall, that's pretty normal for someone sailing at the very top end of the range of their board and overpowered on the rig.
Why do you keep heading upwind.....?
Mostly it's a "self preservation" issue.
If you do the things necessary to stay on a beam reach (or any steady course that's not right about as high upwind as you can go) the rig continues to load up, the pressure on you (the sailor) increases, and at some point you are sure you will simply "explode:.
But, if you have your harness lines adjusted correctly, you can "ease off" slightly on your sheeting angle (no change in rake of the rig, just a slight "easing" of the sheeting angle to reduce the pressure) and stay on course.
Moving your harness lines back (as Mondy suggests) could be a solution, or it could make your situation worse. It depends on how you have your lines adjusted currently.
Your "analysis" of why you keep tending to go upwind is probably fairly accurate, and as Mondy suggests, part of the solution may be to do the things that increase mast foot pressure (to drive the nose off the wind a bit more) but I get the distinct impression that you are using "heading upwind" as a bit of a "safey valve".
When you get everything balanced, you won't need the "safety valve" as much, and you will be alot more likely to lift your heels, put all your weight on the harness (commitment here), and apply the proper pressure to keep your board heading across the wind, at seemingly ridiculously fast speeds, with complete control, because everything balances.
Hope this helps,

mitchiedog
27th February 2008, 02:54 PM
Hi Roger,
yes you are right, I am guilty of using the upwind angle as a bit of a safety valve. The speed has freaked me out! I'm 78kg. The mast is slightly forward of centre in the track with the 7.0. I found the board really difficult to control with it anything but forward of centre, and getting into the straps and harness was difficult since the board would really bounce and not track straight. With the mast more forward it the board settles down, tracks much straighter and gives me a couple extra seconds to get settled in the harness and straps before speed really picks up.
yes Ive been tuning the sail - downhaul max and more ouhaul in the stronger wind. I should emphasise the 22 knots would be the gusts, usually its more aroung 15-18. I have some video that my wife took that I might try and post on you-tube for you. If you look carefully you might be able to see the windward rail down slightly. The video has also confirmed to me that my weight is not nearly as 'locked in" and down as I feel it is. Something to work on.

Roger
27th February 2008, 11:28 PM
Hi Mitchiedog,
OK, I understand.
I thiink Mondy really hit on the solutions to your isues here.
From my experiences over the entire range of Carve boards since about 1999, I would say that trying to sail you Carve 131 very near to it's maximum, with the mast foot forward of the center of the track is probably the central issue here.
I'm pretty sure Mondy would agree that sailing a Carve (any Carve) at near max. with the mast foot that far forward is going to do a couple of things, neither of them good, in my opinion.
First, the board is not going to be "free", as the mast foot forward is going to push too much of the board's hull into the water.
Secondly, having the mast foot that far forward is going to result in a "bound/rebound cycle that's very difficult (if not impossible) to control.
My guess (Mondy hit on this as well) is that somehow you are failing to commit your weight onto the harness or not doing it as soon as you get your front foot in the front strap and hooked in with your harness.
This lack of mast foot pressure (MFP) is what allows your board to bounce around so much when you gain a little speed.
The bouncing around affects your ability to steer with normal heel/toe pressure and you compensate by heading upwind which at least gives you a little better directional stability (when you don't have enough MFP).
So, and I realize it's going to be hard to break old habits, I would suggest you start moving the mast foot back a little at a time, try to shorten your harness lines (if they are well balanced now) and adjust your harness line position a bit to get the harness lines to the point where you can remove both hands momentarily and your rig justs stays in place, providing you with steady power.
If your lines are not balanced well, and about the right length, it's nearly impossible for you to relax, and just let the board accelerate.
The faster you go, the more out of balance everything becomes.
When you get things really well balanced, the line length correct for your size and stature, and the mast foot in the board's "sweet spot", things will be a little out of balance as you start to sheet in and rake the rig back, but the balance will improve as you sheet in more, rake back more, and gain more speed.
When you get up to full speed, with full MFP on the board, through the rig, the balance will be near perfect and you will soon have the board going at max. speed, all the time, comfortably.
If you can find a way, I'd really like to see the video, or even still shots of you sailing to check for obvious issues that might be fairly easy for you to correct once they've been identified for you.
Hope this helps,

Ellen Faller
28th February 2008, 02:42 AM
One thing that causes the windward rail to sink is too much weight (any weight) on the heels. Sometimes when getting used to the harness, the tendency is to lean back against the harness, but at the same time rocking onto the heels. The more weight on the heels, the more the rail sinks, and you will head upwind. Think about leaning back but putting the pressure through the front half of your foot (in the strap, both straps). You don't have to lift your heels, just don't put any pressure on them. With the weight off the heels and the pressure through the toes against the board, you will be driving the board forward, and can use the toe pressure to do a little foot pressure steering as you describe in post #13. You use the toe pressure with the back foot when you take it out of the back strap and place it on the centerline. That's good. Now do the same with your feet while in the strap. No heel pressure.
good luck and keep up the good work,
Ellen

mitchiedog
28th February 2008, 07:39 AM
Thanks Ellen and Roger
heres the video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mvegJFhmu5Q

not great but you may be able to pick out at the beginning how the board is riding slightly windward rail down, quite common for me. As I approach the shore I sheet out to prepare for landing. the video has revealed for sure I am not committing enough, and you can clearly see where the rig pulls me up on my feet, over the board. I will certainly think about my heels too Ellen and yes in my haste to settle the board down after hooking in, I'm probably leaning out and weighting them too much.

Roger - ok, if you think it will help I'll try again with the mast more back in the track. It seems to make getting hooked in more difficult because as soon the board planes the tail is wagging from side to side.

sailing on this port tack back to the beach was a lot more comfortable than heading out when the chop was head on. Thats was when the carve 131 really felt big. The video doesn't really show just how big the chop was.

My harness lines feel good Roger,I have been able to relax my arms and the rig feels quite balanced with no hand grip for a few seconds. I've worked hard at tuning them. If I could just get the board a bit flatter I would feel much more confident with the back foot in the strap.

Roger
28th February 2008, 08:31 AM
Hi Mitchiedog,
OK, now I've seen it.
You are standing up very straight.
It's hard to apply your weight to the rig (through the harness of course) when you are standing up that tall.
Are you using the inboard footstrap positions, or the outboard?
At no time in the short video clip do I see your rig fully raked back and sheeted in.
So, the bouncing I see the board doing is almost surely lack of mast foot pressure.
It's almost like you are controlling the pitch (fore and aft trim) angle of your board from the back of the board, rather than using the mast foot pressure to keep the nose down and allow you to flatten the board out so it will plane more freely.
We'll wait and see what others have to say now that they've seen the video.
Hope this helps,

mitchiedog
28th February 2008, 12:54 PM
thanks Roger, appreciate your help. Yes when i saw the video i was a bit surprised how tall i was standing also. Funny how what you think you're doing is quite different to what you are doing.

Roger
28th February 2008, 07:26 PM
Hi Mitchiedog,
Yes, video can reveal what's really going on in painful detail.
If you stand that tall all the time, it's pretty clear that you probably have never really experienced the amount of support your rig can provide, and since you don't have it fully raked back and you aren't getting all your weight on to the rig, you also probably have never experienced what full mast foot pressure can do.
You are in for a major change in paradigm here.
When you get out again, try to get the rig all the way back to where the foot of the sail is parallel to the water (or the deck of your board).
You are going to have to really concentrate on making the board flat to the water (rail to rail or the "roll" axis) because as you bring the rig back more, any upwind rail down situation is going to make the board "crank" upwind in a heartbeat.
If nothing else, try to start off with your board going further downwind.
That's not going to be a probolem becuase we have established that you can get back upwind real easy.
Also, try the inboard footstrap positions as being a bit closer to the center of your board can help you to not rail the board so much.
Ultimately, you will probably want them outboard, but until you get beyond the current issues inboard might be alot better.
Hope this helps,

Ellen Faller
1st March 2008, 10:47 AM
Hi again,
There is nothing quite like seeing yourself from another perspective! I can well remember my first, 10th and 50th revelations by video. It really helps.
I agree with everything that Roger said. And, being female, I can't help adding one more thing. In the techno-speak of windsurfing, we talk about the "center of effort" in the sail (the focus point of the sail's "power") and the "center of lateral resistance" (the focus of sideways resistance). When sailing in non-planing mode, and/or with a centerboard down, you go straight by having the CE over the CLR, to steer downwind the CE is leaned forward of the CLR, and to steer upwind the CE is moved aft of the CLR. Basic stuff.
Once you get up and planing, and without a centerboard, the sides of the board and the fin become the CLR and are thus farther back on the board than they were when the whole board was in the water. A common problem is that sailors progressing through this stage are used to thinking of sheeting in as being what increases the speed and the transition to planing. However, one must still remember to balance the CE over the newly farther back CLR. If you don't begin to rake the rig back as you pick up speed, you end up sort of balancing forces but at the expense of ease of sailing.
By moving the mastfoot back, it will help balance the CE and make the sailing more comfortable and easy. You will plane more easily, and be able to lean back against the pull of the rig more effortlessly. Additionally, the mastfoot pressure will be more effective as Roger has pointed out so well.
Move the mast back a bit at a time so that the differences won't be too extreme, and so that you can really begin to feel the difference.
keep up the good work,
Ellen