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Old 7th October 2006, 12:07 AM   #1
TomG
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Default How to avoid "spin outs"?

I still experience too often "spin-outs" (the fin doesn't "work" anymore and the board moves sideways). I believe that I put too much pressure via the rear foot and strap onto the boards. I have tried to straighten my front leg a bit more and almost pull the back foot towards me, which has given some improvement. However, I find it difficult and feel not all the time that my body has good poition / "posture".

Are there any tips that you could give to prevent this phenomena?

Thomas
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Old 7th October 2006, 03:34 AM   #2
o2bnme
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Default RE: How to avoid "spin outs"?

What size board (& type), sail, fin are you using? What are the wind conditions? How much do you weigh?

Last weekend, I went sailing with a 9.8 and a 56 cm fin. I thought I was using a 66cm fin. ooops. My mistake, but the point is, if you don't have the right combination you might have these sorts of problems.

Technique is important too, of course, but if we can rule out equipment matching as an issue first that would be good.
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Old 7th October 2006, 11:09 AM   #3
Roger
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Default RE: How to avoid "spin outs"?

Hi Thomas,
Spin out is pretty common, it happens to all windsurfers, from time to time.
Sometimes it's caused by a bad fin.
Sometimes, even with a good fin, it happens, and techniques that reduce the loading on the fin can help.
Sometimes just tuning your rig a little better can make all the difference.
I agree with o2bnme that what board you are sailing, what fin you are using, and what rigs, windspeeds and surface conditions can all be factors here, it's rarely purely a technique issue, unless you tend to "jump on" your fins way to early.
The foils on windsurfing fins REQUIRE a certain minimum flow of water over the foil before you can really "push" on the fin.
Push at too low a speed, and the fin stalls and spins out.
This is why most of us head a little off the wind and try to get fully planing before we put much pressure on our fins.
So, give us a little more information here, and I'm sure we can give you some suggestions to solve your "spin out" issues.
When you put "pressure" on your fin, what is the rail to rail attitude (the roll angle) of your board? Are you sailing with the upwind rail lower than the downwind rail?
Are you trying to sail "on the fin" with the lee rail slightly (very slightly) lower than the upwind rail?
Are you trying to push the tail of the board down, toward the water, or trying to push the tail away from your body?
Either of the above techniques works, but one works best on very small boards with usually a single rear footstrap, where the other works much better on a wide board with a large fin.
At no time will you be able to "pull up" with your back foot (unless you are chop hopping or jumping) and thus reduce the pressure on your fin.
Shifting your weight to the front foot can also cause problems.
Give us a little more info to work with please.
Hope this helps,


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Old 7th October 2006, 02:16 PM   #4
TomG
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Default RE: How to avoid "spin outs"?

Thanks to both of you Roger and o2bnme,

I have actually 3 boards, all JP's :@ from 85 to 130 l Crossover type (Freestyle Wave) the smallest and Freeide the other two. I have for each board 2 fins, i.e. from Curtis and Selectm which I selected for the specific board and sail sizes. So, the size and quality of the fins should not be a problem. If still helpful I can provide the details later. Sails types vary. 9.0 and 7.0 Freeride, 5.8 Crossover and 4.7 and 4.0 Wave. Water conditions vary but it happens on flat water / choppy conditions (lake) as well as wavy conditions on the ocean (North Sea or similar).

The spinouts typically occur when I am at higher speeds and have some load in the sail and I guess more frequently when I go slightly upwinds.

I don't know the answers to the other questions (below) - I don't do any of consciously, so will pay attention to this when I get onto the waer next time.
When you put "pressure" on your fin, what is the rail to rail attitude (the roll angle) of your board? Are you sailing with the upwind rail lower than the downwind rail?
Are you trying to sail "on the fin" with the lee rail slightly (very slightly) lower than the upwind rail?
Are you trying to push the tail of the board down, toward the water, or trying to push the tail away from your body?


Thanks again and I will get back when I can answer the outstanding questions, which may take a bit of time.

Thomas
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Old 8th October 2006, 08:16 PM   #5
Roger
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Default RE: How to avoid "spin outs"?

Hi Thomas,
OK, smaller freeride-freestyle type boards with small curvy loose fins.
On these smaller boards, you normally use very small (20-30 cm) fins that have a very curvy outline profile and and very twisty "tip".
They turn really easily, and are made to be very "loose" so you can do the tricks (on the freestyle boards) or slash and off the lip on wave type boards.
So, they seem to "spin out" very easily with these tiny fins.
If you get a more slalom oriented (more vertical and straighter planform) fin for your board, you won't get s much spin out, and your board will be more directional and easier to sail in the "back and forth" mode.
You also will get much better upwind performance and better speed as well.
Hope this helps,
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Old 31st October 2006, 03:44 AM   #6
TomG
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Default RE: How to avoid "spin outs"?

Hi Roger,

I had the opportunity to sail last weekend, not great conditions though. However, I used a 9m2 sail with JP Freeride 129 (width 69cm) and 48cm fin (Curtis CR12). Foot straps in the outer position and in second but last screw position. I don't know the wind speed. And I had spinouts 3 or 4 times.

Here are your questions and my answers:
When you put "pressure" on your fin, what is the rail to rail attitude (the roll angle) of your board? Are you sailing with the upwind rail lower than the downwind rail?
The upwind rails was actually higher than the lee (downwind) rail. I did it not by purpose but struggled to get the board horizontal at higher windspeeds.

Are you trying to sail "on the fin" with the lee rail slightly (very slightly) lower than the upwind rail?
Ref. rail position, see above response - lee lower than upwind by a fair bit it felt. I still try to understand how to ride "on the fin". I have the feeling that the wetted area is relatively large (and long) but don't know for sure - difficult to judge when on the board I find.

Are you trying to push the tail of the board down, toward the water, or trying to push the tail away from your body?
I wouldn't say that I try to push the tail in a direction but as a matter of fact I push it away from my body while I try to reduce the pressure by bending the back leg and straighten the fron leg. Occasionally I even try to "pull" rather than push with my back leg but I guess whenever I don't concentrate on my back leg I push away.
There were times that I remember when I tried to almost lift the front foot to lift the entire board a bit out of the water.

Water conditions rather flat (lake) but in gust some small waves/chops. Once the upwind rail got lifter from one of those small waves and I lost immediately grip (means spinned out).

The sail needed actually more downhaul I realised later. It was (just) ok for the lowest wind speed and got me to plane early but in the gusts I struggled to hold it. To same extent lack of practise (TOW) I presume.

Overall I felt reasonbly good, got to plane earlier than a guy with a 9.8m2 Nitro and was quite fast compared to others (although most had smaller sails)

Hope this helps you to get a better understanding what I do wrong and waht I could do to avoid the spinouts.

Thomas
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Old 31st October 2006, 08:10 PM   #7
Roger
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Default RE: How to avoid "spin outs"?

Hi Thomas,
Your description of "pushing" over the top of the fin does not sound quite like what I'm suggesting, and "pulling" toward upwind with your back foot is only something I would suggest to "recover" a fin that's already "spun out".
So, try this on your next sesh.
Get your board going as fast as you can on a beam reach (straight across the wind at 90 deg.).
Then begin to lift (not pull) a little with your front foot in the front footstrap to get the upwind rail up slightly higher than the lee rail.
Now begin to "push" across the top of the fin with your rear foot.
Imagine that you are trying to push the board away from you straight across the top of the water.
You can determine which rail is lowered, and how much waterline length you have in the water by looking down at your board momentarily.
If the "splash" of spray and white water is coming out from under your board on the upwind side, and you see pretty much "green water" (no splash) off the downwind rail, you have it right.
Notice the place (along the rail of the board) where the "splash" comes out from under the upwind rail. If you can get the splash to come out from under your board at or behind the front footstrap you have it right.
If the splash comes out forward of the front footstrap, your board is riding too low at the nose. Maybe move your mast foot back a little and see if you can get the exit point of the spray to move back under the front footstrap.
Also, try giving your sail a little more downhaul, to make it slightly less powerful, or get an adjustable outhaul "kit" so you can have your sail be really powerful to get planing and less powerful and more "slippery" once you are on plane and the apparent wind has accelerated due to your forward speed.
Also remember, (esp. on your smaller boards and fins) that if you are feeling alot of pull with your back hand, that force needs to go somewhere, and it travels from that back hand, through the arm to your back shoulder, down through the torso, and down your leg to the foot in the rear footstrap.
So you may want to change your mast foot postion, harness line length, boom height, and trim and tuning of your sail to get that pressure off the back hand and hence off the fin.
Hope this helps,
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Old 19th November 2006, 08:23 AM   #8
tonyP
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Default RE: How to avoid "spin outs"?

>>>>Also remember, (esp. on your smaller boards and fins) that if you are feeling alot of pull with your back hand, that force needs to go somewhere, and usually it travel from that back hand, down the arm to your shoulder, through the torso, and down your leg to the foot in the footstrap.
So you may want to change your mast foot postion, harness line length, boom height, and trim and tuning of your sail to get that pressure off the back hand and hence off the fin.<<<<<

Hi Roger,
Good point re: recovering from spinout by pulling the tail of the board with the rear foot. Also, I like the description of the spray above as a means to tell when the board is correctly angled to ride the fin. I&#39;ll be printing that part and putting it in my &#39;windsurfing binder&#39;. I did the same with your recent detailed description of how to pump onto a plane.

Re: the quote above, might I ask you to comment on how to eliminate the "pull on the back hand" by changing the variables that you mentioned there. The reason I ask is that when faced with that situation (back hand pressure) I just assumed that my harness lines weren&#39;t set right, and moved the lines back a little on the boom.

I&#39;m looking forward to your comments, thanks for your time and insights.

Tony
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Old 20th November 2006, 08:29 AM   #9
Roger
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Default RE: How to avoid "spin outs"?

Hi Tony,
Let me think about this one for a few days.
I started to "write a book" today on the overall dynamics and physics
of how you can re-balance your rig, reposition your mast foot, change your harness line positions and spacing, and change the length of your lines and boom height to get everything more balanced so you don&#39;t exert too much pressure on the fin.
But I need to go sailing a bit and try out some of my "ideas" here before I write them up.
Please be patient and I&#39;ll have a good answer for you.

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Old 21st November 2006, 04:08 AM   #10
o2bnme
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Default RE: How to avoid "spin outs"?

Roger, that sounds like a more professional way of writing a &#39;20 knot clause.&#39; I saw the forecast too. ;-) I guess while it is raining, you&#39;ll have time to write it up again.

Tuesday: Rain likely, then occasional rain and possibly a thunderstorm after 1pm. Some of the storms could produce heavy rainfall. High near 60. Very windy, with a northeast wind 30 to 33 mph increasing to between 46 and 49 mph. Winds could gust as high as 65 mph. Chance of precipitation is 100%. New rainfall amounts between one and two inches possible.

Wednesday: Occasional rain and possibly a thunderstorm. Some of the storms could produce heavy rainfall. High near 61. Very windy, with a northeast wind 34 to 37 mph increasing to between 43 and 46 mph. Chance of precipitation is 100%. New rainfall amounts between two and three inches possible.

On a more serious note, with waterskiing, people tune their waterskis with calipers. They keep a notebook log of the changes and how it affected their performance. There aren&#39;t as many things to move on a ski, but I like how they explain what you can do to tune your set up. Maybe this would apply here? I only say this because I haven&#39;t seen a good explanation of this stuff anywhere on the web yet. If it is written up, please share the link!

Could you produce a list of the things you can tune and what the change affects? Bigger/smaller fin, mast track forward/back, footstraps, boom height, harness lines, etc. Has this been formalized before?
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Neil Pryde [v8 9.8], Sailworks [Retro 8.0; Hucker 6.6, 5.6, 4.8]


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